Handgun: gotta deliver at least 500 ft.lbs at the get go; I've gotta manage at least the ability to put a magazine in the 9-10 ring, offhand, at 10 paces - preferably 2.5x that. Short guns, are for short range.
Rifles: .5" at 100, is my gold standard. Better than that, I'm stoked. Varmint rigs, have to manage it, to have a chance. Twice that, for big stuff, is a minimum.
For either, handling has to "fit" and confidence has to be there. I can live with less target accuracy, if the "feel" is right, and if the confidence is there, when I pick it up to go.
Right now, I could get back with less accuracy, given the ranges offered in the areas; as stretching past 400 is RARE; though I can like the ability to poke a bullet 'xactly where I want it at ranges I can't normally get to.
Rifles: .5" at 100, is my gold standard. Better than that, I'm stoked. Varmint rigs, have to manage it, to have a chance. Twice that, for big stuff, is a minimum.
For either, handling has to "fit" and confidence has to be there. I can live with less target accuracy, if the "feel" is right, and if the confidence is there, when I pick it up to go.
Right now, I could get back with less accuracy, given the ranges offered in the areas; as stretching past 400 is RARE; though I can like the ability to poke a bullet 'xactly where I want it at ranges I can't normally get to.
Bench rest good doesn't do much for me. Hitting a kill zone size target, under time pressure, under field conditions, tells me alot more about a guy than 1/4'' groups.
I seem to recall Col. Cooper had a pretty good test or 2 in the last chapter of "The Art of the Rifle", but I can't recall them off the top of my head.
I seem to recall Col. Cooper had a pretty good test or 2 in the last chapter of "The Art of the Rifle", but I can't recall them off the top of my head.
It comes down to more than pure accuracy for me. I have rifles that are hard pressed to go under 1" at 100, but I seem to be able to hit shit WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out there with them.
Conversely, I have a 22PPC that will routinely hang 5 under a dime at 200, but I can't warm to it in the field.
Good shooting is the ability to hit what you're aiming at, and that rarely relates directly to groups on paper. 1/4" groups don't impress me much, but being able to centerpunch a dime every time (or a clay bird at 500) gets my attention.
Conversely, I have a 22PPC that will routinely hang 5 under a dime at 200, but I can't warm to it in the field.
Good shooting is the ability to hit what you're aiming at, and that rarely relates directly to groups on paper. 1/4" groups don't impress me much, but being able to centerpunch a dime every time (or a clay bird at 500) gets my attention.
For bolt guns,I generally regard 1/2 moa or better as sparkling. I've a couple few that'll do better. For lever guns, the standard is obviously lower, but I have a Win 88 that has produced several sub 1/2" groups at 100yds.......
Wasn't thinking about revolvers, I've put enough 5 shot groups into 1" at 50 yds with the 480 to consider that good, and basically anything over 1" at 25 yds with a handgun doesn't interest me. Have shot enough 3 shot sub moa to approaching 1/2" groups with contenders to figure if a handrifle won't shoot as well as a rifle it's a pos. I've also tried to use a handrifle from positions other than a bench, and realized they are pos in the field, which is why I don't own them anymore.
It only took me one blacktail hunt to realize that there is no reason to carry a gun that weighs anymore than it has to, and that the ability to connect past 400 yds is never a bad thing. Thus my rifle thinking has evolved to the point that I want the equipment and ability to connect at 800 yds, even if I never take game past 400.
I wanted to build a 223 chunk last year to learn how to shoot, now I'm finally piecing it together.
It only took me one blacktail hunt to realize that there is no reason to carry a gun that weighs anymore than it has to, and that the ability to connect past 400 yds is never a bad thing. Thus my rifle thinking has evolved to the point that I want the equipment and ability to connect at 800 yds, even if I never take game past 400.
I wanted to build a 223 chunk last year to learn how to shoot, now I'm finally piecing it together.
Gotcha. From a purely mechanical point of view, a consistent 3/4 MOA big game rifle strikes me as "Good". Sub-moa is "Acceptable" and half-moa or less is "Excellent".Big Stick said:
I can't see how one can attain top notch skills without the mechanical means to find out what you can do.
With modern actions, barrels and thinking on chamber geometry, there is no reason why "BR" accuracy can't be had in a hunting rifle.
With modern actions, barrels and thinking on chamber geometry, there is no reason why "BR" accuracy can't be had in a hunting rifle.
Of all the guns I own currently, my Model 7 in 204 routinely amazes the most. 2.1" groups at 200yds is the worst it has done, with a variety of boolits and charges. It'll shoot a couple of loads in the .1s and .2s at 100yds and under 1/2" at 200 yds. The amazing part to me, however, is that it 100% factory, save the Gre-Tan firing pin assy. The more amazing part, though, is I've yet to get the pencil thin barrel heated up enough to fuck up the groups. One time I shot about 60 rounds in about 20min. and the SOB was still puttin' 'em right there. I'm thinkin' it is one rifle that definitely benefits from a little upward pressure on the forend tip.....
I patiently await the first rifle that was "too accurate". No such thing in my book.
Fit/feel is something seperate from mechanical accuracy,but I've never latched onto a fantastically accurate rifle and not been able to do as I pleased with it.
Often for me,the trigger is what makes/breaks the show.............
Fit/feel is something seperate from mechanical accuracy,but I've never latched onto a fantastically accurate rifle and not been able to do as I pleased with it.
Often for me,the trigger is what makes/breaks the show.............
Speaking of triggers, I need to spend this winter working on several. I was suprised how well my 350 rem mag shot dispite the horrid factory ruger trigger. I'm also seeing where the .223 isn't shooting to its potential, because of the trigger.
Perhaps a coralary of this thread is, if you've never had good, you don't know how good good can be. I can interpolate others experiences to rate most of my rigs as fair, and awate assembling a few good ones.
Perhaps a coralary of this thread is, if you've never had good, you don't know how good good can be. I can interpolate others experiences to rate most of my rigs as fair, and awate assembling a few good ones.
The trigger is definitely key. Once you learn wtf a good trigger feels like, it's hard to use triggers that you used to find perfectly acceptable.......
My goal this winter is to consistently hit clay pigeons at 500yds with my hunting rifles while laying in the mud and shooting off my pack. I don't have confidence in my rifles at longer ranges, but that's going to change.
Handloading accurate ammo is so simple, so long as the gun doesn't have a mechanical problem all you need is a powder and bullet known to work in the chambering, one or two range sessions and you'll have a load that'll work. I really can't think of a rifle that I haven't been able to find a good load for within two at most three range sessions. I'm typically leary to start off at book max loads, but typically they are the most accurate charge weight, unless the gun is somehow bound up or has a bedding problem.
I've had enough guns that shouldn't be terribly accurate that shoot sub moa that I find alot of what is said about handloading that is bunk. You can try 1/2 dozen powders and bullets, and primers and spend a year fiddle farting around, but it just ain't needed. And if a gun doesn't want to shoot, you are dollars and definately hours ahead to put on a new barrel, or get the gun you really want.
I've had enough guns that shouldn't be terribly accurate that shoot sub moa that I find alot of what is said about handloading that is bunk. You can try 1/2 dozen powders and bullets, and primers and spend a year fiddle farting around, but it just ain't needed. And if a gun doesn't want to shoot, you are dollars and definately hours ahead to put on a new barrel, or get the gun you really want.
Start with a high load density, work up to a reasonable max, make sure your loads are as straight as you can get them, and start messing with seating depth. If you start at the lands, you only have one way to move the die adjustment.VAnimrod said:
I seemed to be able to load downright accurate ammo long before I owned headspace guages, COL guages, comparators, seating depth guages, competition seating dies, or a "casemaster" guage. Hell, before I even owned a trimmer. "Simple" will work, providin' it's done right.....
I don't shoot well, if you set me up at a bench...with bags and rests, and the like. Sorta gives me a chit twitch, if I think about things too much.
Best shots I've wrangled...have been standing or resting on my backpack...and without much thought. But I am still learning.....
My fav. thing still remains the tire gong, at 200 yards.....
Best shots I've wrangled...have been standing or resting on my backpack...and without much thought. But I am still learning.....
My fav. thing still remains the tire gong, at 200 yards.....
Saw some Goodness,this afternoon.
Kodiakearl and his pard watched me shoot (3) 162'Max via Ti at a soft 2600fps into a ragged 100yd hole(still doing load development),then PUNISH 450yd steel with same. I only loaded 10,as a curiousity and will stop at 2700fps-ish. Lapua brass,'15,moly,200's to mag confines.
Secondhand Rose is still everyone's fucking favorite and even Kodiak could work shit at the 700yd line with it.
My fast twist 22-250AI is staying the course and still shooting stupid at the 450-ish rd mark.
My Rock barreled/A5 stocked 308 shoots amazingly at 100,but I hate the fucking thing as compared to 7-08 or 7WSM performance.
The freshly bedded and rechambered 223AI LTR in the A5,shot 3 fireform loads touching at 100 and shifted but .5MOA to the right,during/after bedding. All my barrels love 28grs of '335,moly 50'max kissing lands,400's and R/P hulls. COAL is skewed betwixt them,though I've been knowed to kiss the shortest and wage war in the others,for variety.
Coyote 7WSM is still amazing and not much will hang with the chambering.
My Montana 7WSM is here in a brown wrapper and after a Liquor Store stop,she'll suffer a trigger tweak and a bedding job,as I prep/load some 162's in anticipation.
Best part of the trip was Kodiak's EAGER run to the PACT with his 280,so he could brag up his 120TSX load and dazzle me with both precision and velocity.
Screen read a whopping 3045fps avg and I patted him on the back and said that "Not bad for a fucking 7-08!".(grin)
It looked like the barb stung,if only because the truth hurts................
Kodiakearl and his pard watched me shoot (3) 162'Max via Ti at a soft 2600fps into a ragged 100yd hole(still doing load development),then PUNISH 450yd steel with same. I only loaded 10,as a curiousity and will stop at 2700fps-ish. Lapua brass,'15,moly,200's to mag confines.
Secondhand Rose is still everyone's fucking favorite and even Kodiak could work shit at the 700yd line with it.
My fast twist 22-250AI is staying the course and still shooting stupid at the 450-ish rd mark.
My Rock barreled/A5 stocked 308 shoots amazingly at 100,but I hate the fucking thing as compared to 7-08 or 7WSM performance.
The freshly bedded and rechambered 223AI LTR in the A5,shot 3 fireform loads touching at 100 and shifted but .5MOA to the right,during/after bedding. All my barrels love 28grs of '335,moly 50'max kissing lands,400's and R/P hulls. COAL is skewed betwixt them,though I've been knowed to kiss the shortest and wage war in the others,for variety.
Coyote 7WSM is still amazing and not much will hang with the chambering.
My Montana 7WSM is here in a brown wrapper and after a Liquor Store stop,she'll suffer a trigger tweak and a bedding job,as I prep/load some 162's in anticipation.
Best part of the trip was Kodiak's EAGER run to the PACT with his 280,so he could brag up his 120TSX load and dazzle me with both precision and velocity.
Screen read a whopping 3045fps avg and I patted him on the back and said that "Not bad for a fucking 7-08!".(grin)
It looked like the barb stung,if only because the truth hurts................
.5 moa satisfies me. My '06 turns in enough groups sub .25 moa to tell me it's not a fluke, and the rifle/ammo is more capable than I am.
In Quantico, the guys who load/test the match ammo put the gun in a vise, and test at 300 yards. I've never done anything like that, in order to determine what the rifle is capable of, without me holding it back.
In Quantico, the guys who load/test the match ammo put the gun in a vise, and test at 300 yards. I've never done anything like that, in order to determine what the rifle is capable of, without me holding it back.
Have never given thought to what a rifle could do without me,as I'm always there,come crunchtime and I weigh that feedback heavily.
MANY rifles are fickle,regarding how/where they are held and I believe it prudent to ascertain any/all quirks and note them as reference,so as to eek the goody.
Highstrung shit interests me none,to less than none.................
MANY rifles are fickle,regarding how/where they are held and I believe it prudent to ascertain any/all quirks and note them as reference,so as to eek the goody.
Highstrung shit interests me none,to less than none.................
In the realm of military match shooting, at the inter-service/national level, match-built rifles and ammo are used. the ammomakers aren't shooters, and the shooters aren't ammomakers. So the guys on the reloading press remove all the variables possible to evaluate their ammo, before handing off to the trigger-pullers.
The competition within the USMC units, (Division matches) is done with ball ammo, and rack-grade weapons. The top shooters from are then picked to compete with the good shit, against the other services, and civilians at Perry.
The competition within the USMC units, (Division matches) is done with ball ammo, and rack-grade weapons. The top shooters from are then picked to compete with the good shit, against the other services, and civilians at Perry.
For me, and most all of us, the mechanical accuracy, is not the rifle alone. It's the ability of the rifle, ammo, and operator, together.
For me, it all depends on the type of rifle. I'm not going into the light vs heavy rifle debate but I do have much greater expectations out of a heavier rig. For any rifle I do demand consistancy.
I mostly practice at 320 yards simply because that's the length of the range out my back door. I've a steel plate appoximately 4"x4" and if I can hit it every time (when I do my part) from a hunting position I am satisfied. I practice with Stoney Point shooting sticks mostly. My shooting sticks are of the height that allows me to drop to a left knee and sit on the heel of the foot of the same leg. My right foot is firmly planted on the ground with my right elbow resting on my right knee. My left hand grips both the rifle and the shooting sticks. Hitting the target in this position is routine so now mostly I work on how fast I can get into the position and get off a good shot going from walking with the sticks in my hand and rifle slung over the shoulder, which has become pretty darn quick. I figure the only time this position will not work is steep downhill shots which I could go prone easy enough or high obstacles at which point I'm looking for a tree of some sort to prop on.
Here's pics of what I expect from a "heavier" rig (308 and 175 SMK's) and what satisifies me with a hunting rig (270 and 150 Partitions, sorry CAS). The 270 will not routinely shoot that small but will routinely shoot a little over .5".
As a side note, the Leup on the 270 got busted during this year's elk hunt and is on its way back to Leupold. Luckily, as we all know, Leup's customer service is second to none. It's a good thing, I use it a lot.
I mostly practice at 320 yards simply because that's the length of the range out my back door. I've a steel plate appoximately 4"x4" and if I can hit it every time (when I do my part) from a hunting position I am satisfied. I practice with Stoney Point shooting sticks mostly. My shooting sticks are of the height that allows me to drop to a left knee and sit on the heel of the foot of the same leg. My right foot is firmly planted on the ground with my right elbow resting on my right knee. My left hand grips both the rifle and the shooting sticks. Hitting the target in this position is routine so now mostly I work on how fast I can get into the position and get off a good shot going from walking with the sticks in my hand and rifle slung over the shoulder, which has become pretty darn quick. I figure the only time this position will not work is steep downhill shots which I could go prone easy enough or high obstacles at which point I'm looking for a tree of some sort to prop on.
Here's pics of what I expect from a "heavier" rig (308 and 175 SMK's) and what satisifies me with a hunting rig (270 and 150 Partitions, sorry CAS). The 270 will not routinely shoot that small but will routinely shoot a little over .5".
As a side note, the Leup on the 270 got busted during this year's elk hunt and is on its way back to Leupold. Luckily, as we all know, Leup's customer service is second to none. It's a good thing, I use it a lot.
On a custom built big game caliber rifle, 5 shots into 1/2" is not a problem to achieve and is a reasonable expectation. Anything less is not top notch work or components on a custom.
On a factory barreled big game caliber rifle, properly bedded, I'll take an inch......anything better is gravy. Just too many straightened barrels for all of them to be 1/2" guns.
In small calibers, varmints, etc. must be under 1/2" for 5 shots and hopefully a bit better.
MM
On a factory barreled big game caliber rifle, properly bedded, I'll take an inch......anything better is gravy. Just too many straightened barrels for all of them to be 1/2" guns.
In small calibers, varmints, etc. must be under 1/2" for 5 shots and hopefully a bit better.
MM
3050fps bruised her deeply,but not quite as wickedly as the inability to paste the 450yd gong with same,despite 15-ish attempts.
Could hit it with all of my stuff and I'm thinking that mighta added to the red ass.....................(grin)
Could hit it with all of my stuff and I'm thinking that mighta added to the red ass.....................(grin)