data-csrf="1711696903,f51cded5d666efe76bfb577c11189d38" The Stickenstein Build | As Real As It Gets

The Stickenstein Build

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
I'm one major component away from being able to hand off this build to my smith...I'm calling it the Stickenstein build, as it's something of a Frankenstein patchwork of various recommendations I've seen from Big Stick over time, but it's got other things thrown in as well (mostly due to my own laziness).

Starting out with a 700 donor, I picked up one of the Brux 6mm blanks Southern Precision had laying around. 8 twist, Rem Varmint contour and it'll be .243 punched and chopped.

The one thing I'm waiting on is the stock. A-5 mcswirly in red and black, 50/50.

It'll also have a PTG Stealth bottom metal. The Fixed Phuqer goes atop it all.

It's mostly to scratch an itch I've long had for an A-5 for longer distance pokes, but I will probably also try to take it out for antelope on hunts where light done right can be forsaken.

As always, obliged to everyone for the tips and hints, when it all comes together I'll have a report.

 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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It'll be tough to whoop,for both fun and Performance.

I'm close to doing same at 20",but in 270 for 105's...............
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
So the A-5 is on the brown truck for delivery tomorrow and that's the last thing I thought I needed afore turning it over to a local smith. I sent the smith I had been talking to a note giving him a head's up that I was prolly going to stop by with parts for the build and he tells me that he doesn't have a .243 AI reamer (but does have something that he says is close-a 6 LRP).

I've never heard of a 6 LRP and wasn't really interested in experimenting with new chamberings that may be "just as good" but are far more difficult to find reloading components/dies/etc. for.

I'm also a bit less than enthused about having a smith build a rifle in a chambering that he apparently doesn't deal with often (I assume that if he did, he'd have the reamer, but maybe I'm missing something).

So two questions: (1) Anyone know good, bad or indifferent about the 6mm LRP and (2) is a smith without a .243 AI reamer a warning sign for a .243 AI build?

The last question is more important...I already have two GAP rifles and was going to try a local California smith for this build, but the folks at GAP have already told me to send in the parts, they have the reamer.

Maybe this is a related question, but the local smith never answered my follow up question last week when I asked him what he does when he has a build without a reamer (i.e., is it something the customer is supposed to supply?) Maybe he got busy, maybe he's out of town, maybe he's giving me a warning that he's a flake...dunno, and he has a good reputation otherwise.
 

Dude270

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2014
971
73
Amen. Go with your gut. More than one build has been goatfucked by trying to stay local.
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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I Mail everything and like to get what I want.

Seen (2) 700 S/A's go out for 270 Builds and a OEM S/S 77/22 Hornet for a lop/chop/punch...yesterday alone...............
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
Thanks, all, it sounds like my best bet is to send it all off to George...

The A-5 McSwirly arrived today and it's just what I was hoping for (50/50 red and black). The varmint contour seems to be a nice optical fit and the ergos of the A-5, just putting it against shoulder, fits me to a T. Might be a bit heavy, but so am I...



 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
Once again, thanks for the guidance on the build. I packed up all the parts and just dropped it off for shipment to North Kansas City with instructions to chop the barrel to 22" and punch it to .243 AI and do some magic to the action. I'm planning on chasing speedgoats in WY later this year and hope to have this rifle set up and dialed in by then. Obliged for the collective knowledge here.
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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With that twist rate and DBM,the 6-284 ain't a poor choice,though none of mine are shorter than 23"(unless you count the Montucky Six Twat-Six at 22.25"). Killer brass abounds,there's no forming and the bitch HONKS outta da' gate.

For a shoot THE Fuck Outta It Rifle,that gets flogged on daily,I'd be looking for something more sedate. For a dedicate LR Niche Rifle,the 6-284 seriously rates a thunk. Keep the throat .100" or less and you are golden ala 105 smooches in the DBM. Were I doing it again,I'd be thinking .050" of throat.

The 243AI will never suck and I savvy the appeal,but the 6-284 is a MAGNIFICENT Bastard. George has built lotsa 243AI's and gunned 'em in Competition,more than a smidge,so that familiarity cain't hurt.

Food for thought............
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
I have to resurrect this topic. Just got word that my hunting pard and I got the Wyoming speedgoat tags we were hoping for. When he called with the news I told him that the timing was good, as I was about to take delivery of this .243 AI build and would work up some 105 BTHP loads for the hunt. He immediately questioned the wisdom of using match bullets with the usual refrain that I'd ruin a lot of meat.

I know that his criticism has generally been debunked, but for this particular situation, using a .243 AI 105 on game the size of a buck antelope, if I do my part with putting the bullet where it should go, does the 105 have a propensity to ruin meat?

(My pard is a very accomplished hunter, but he's very rigid in the way he thinks and doesn't stray from that which he's always done)
 

Pat85

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2015
401
2
Pa.
All bullets ruin meat if you hit them in the meat. Use the bullet you are most comfortable with. If I was lucky enough to draw a Wyoming speed goat tag the last thing I would be worring about is ruinning an extra 5 lbs of meat from some stinky old trophy buck.
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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Meat gets shot in the ear...Good 'Un's get broken bone and as much as I can muster.

Which is more than a lot...............(grin)
 

Ben300WSM

Active member
Dec 17, 2007
26
0
Michigan
A friend's daughter has shot 3 deer with her 243AI and 87gr BTHPs. None went more than a couple steps and didn't ruin hardly any meat at all.

He uses the 105gr BTHP in his 6-06AI and it does just as well.

Hornady BTHP bullets are much more robust than you would think.
 

bobnob

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2016
566
4
NSW, Australia
The goat shooting I've done (mountain goats not your speed goats) with the 75g BTHP in 223 all went through the front shoulder with a pencil thin hole that didn't ruin any meat, then they expanded very quick and blew the heart and lungs to bits.

The recovered bullets were in the far shoulder and retained about 50% weight and expanded well.

I noted much the same in wet newspaper tests.

Not the 105g 6mm version I know. Dunno if that helps...
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
Welp, just in time to work up some loads for antelope season, the build is complete. Can't say much before I air her out, but the ergos work for me. I still have to get the scope settled in and form some brass but I think this one will work. Bit of a pig, weight wise, but for Wyoming 'lope hunting it shouldn't be a problem. Thanks again to all who guided me to this build (.243 AI, Fixed Phuqer, 8 twist brux in rem varmint contour cut to 22", A5 stock, PTG DBM, reamed, massaged, and put together with a bed lug job and some receiver work by the good folks at GAP.


 

Lineman

Well-known member
Dec 31, 2010
1,148
33
VA
What kind of wait time did you have with GAP?

Looks great, btw. Would love to have something similar.
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
The wait time was about 4 months. No question that GAP does great work, but they weren't my first choice. I wanted to go with a local smith but there were some issues that gave me second thoughts. I've had GAP builds before and knew they would be reliable, so I went with the longer wait to make sure I got what I wanted.

With scope, this one weighs about 12 lbs (I had to use my wife's scale, and she may have done some of that woman-fu crap that causes scales to read low, but 12 is what it read). It feels every bit of 12 lbs too, which makes my light-done-right rifles feel like they should float, but for what I'm going to use this one for weight isn't going to be a big issue.

I was hoping to get it to the range this weekend but work is piling up, so a range report will have to wait.
 

Lineman

Well-known member
Dec 31, 2010
1,148
33
VA
Thanks for the info.

4 months is actually very reasonable, considering their popularity.

I'm done trying to go local with anything 'smith related. I really tried though. Never again...
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
So one final question before I start putting rounds through this one. GAP tossed a copy of their barrel break in recommendation. They make it clear that they recommend against using moly bullets to break in a new barrel (and form the cases for AI at the same time).

Thing is, I once saw a Youtube video on barrel break in that seemed to be a lot more interesting than the GAP method. Plus, my new build definitely has a bull barrel.

Anyone know whether in the 8 years since the Youtube video was made there's been any change of heart on the proper method to break in a barrel?
 

ridgeline

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2009
662
7
australia
Remsen, sweet rig Dude! critters are no doubt gonna be in some seriously deep shit...

I've been running Moly since about 1998 and it's always the same deal, start with a sterile clean bore then simply pound Moly... never mattered a fuck to me whether Saami or AI, new barrel or used...

Lookin' forward to your range report and dead speed goat Pics...
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
Finally got to the range*. I was just taking her for the first spin to break in the barrel ala the suggested method (shoot one round, then another, and another, until there are no more left to shoot) and to form the Lapua .243 cases for Ackley use. While the bullets were moly'd, they were just 87 gr Vmax, which I don't plan to use when hunting but they were cheap and I figured that for forming virgin cases and getting moly in the barrel, they'd work well enough.

I only could get to a 200 yard range* and this was the result (15 round group shot fairly quickly). I still have to do some load development for the 105s with the formed cases, but it seems to hold some promise. My favorite rifle used to be the one have in an AICS stock, but I'm totally sold on the A-5 for so many reasons. It's a chunky phuqer, but it is so dang solid and comfortable I could see dragging it places it shouldn't go.



* I didn't want to rant about California before I gave the range report, but here goes... The anti-gun lunatics here are doing everything they can to shut down all aspects of arms ownership and use (other than by criminals, of course). The biggest, most popular range in my area was shut down on some trumped up claims that bullets were landing in distant neighborhoods. It was a bullshit claim, but it was the pretext the local govt needed to shut the range down, which they did. The only way they'll let it reopen is if the range spends millions of dollars to put in a bunch of idiotic safeguards to prevent something that never happened in the first place from happening again. The other range in my area is now overwhelmed with people from the shut down range, and it takes several hours waiting to get a bench now. So I had to travel a lot further to another range in Northern Cal that doesn't have hours-long waits. I'm only here for my elderly parents, and when they're gone, so will I be....
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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Got alotta barrels hot today and only saw (3) rigs. I musta shot on at least 25 different "ranges" today.................
 

Lineman

Well-known member
Dec 31, 2010
1,148
33
VA
Shot two crazy good chunks today, 6 BR and 22 Dasher, both in A5s and Heavy Varmint contours from Brux.

I had swore off the heavy shit, but those A5s felt GOOD. I had never been behind one before.

Now I'm wanting to build one just like this.
 

Cuando

Well-known member
Oct 23, 2014
887
9
You're in the crappiest part of the state too. If you ever wanna make a +/- 3 hour trip north, I've got steel out to 1,350 and nobody around to bother you.
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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Flogged on the Heavy 270 purty good today and it's a hoot to watch the whole fucking Show,through the scope.

The Salami 22-250 High RPM Rock,don't suck with 75's.................

 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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Top left X-Caliber 1-7" 5R Salami 243Win. Top right Mike Rock 223AI.

Left to right on the deck. Mike Rock Salami 243Win,Bart' 1-8" 270,Brux 1-8" Six Twat-Six,PN 1-9" 3-groove 243AI,Bart 1-7.75" 18" 270,Brux 1-8" 23.3" 6-284,Brux 1-8" no-turn 6BR,OEM BABLR 7-08,OEM Annie 1717D HB,18" Clark(LW) .720" Hummer..................
 

Brazo

Well-known member
Mar 29, 2013
525
3
The Keystone State
remsen said:
Finally got to the range*. I was just taking her for the first spin to break in the barrel ala the suggested method (shoot one round, then another, and another, until there are no more left to shoot) and to form the Lapua .243 cases for Ackley use. While the bullets were moly'd, they were just 87 gr Vmax, which I don't plan to use when hunting but they were cheap and I figured that for forming virgin cases and getting moly in the barrel, they'd work well enough.

I only could get to a 200 yard range* and this was the result (15 round group shot fairly quickly). I still have to do some load development for the 105s with the formed cases, but it seems to hold some promise. My favorite rifle used to be the one have in an AICS stock, but I'm totally sold on the A-5 for so many reasons. It's a chunky phuqer, but it is so dang solid and comfortable I could see dragging it places it shouldn't go.



* I didn't want to rant about California before I gave the range report, but here goes... The anti-gun lunatics here are doing everything they can to shut down all aspects of arms ownership and use (other than by criminals, of course). The biggest, most popular range in my area was shut down on some trumped up claims that bullets were landing in distant neighborhoods. It was a bullshit claim, but it was the pretext the local govt needed to shut the range down, which they did. The only way they'll let it reopen is if the range spends millions of dollars to put in a bunch of idiotic safeguards to prevent something that never happened in the first place from happening again. The other range in my area is now overwhelmed with people from the shut down range, and it takes several hours waiting to get a bench now. So I had to travel a lot further to another range in Northern Cal that doesn't have hours-long waits. I'm only here for my elderly parents, and when they're gone, so will I be....
Really like how this one came together! Glad to see it's performing well. What did you use for a form load?

Thanks
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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The HEAVY 270 A5 Bitch,is a riot.

Had C-Note purty hot yesterday with Herd Clips and all Sister could say was "HOLY Shit!"...tough to beat a 2-ounce trigger,swivel bipod and them greasy MDT poly 10's when in The Patch.................(grin)
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
Brazo said:
Really like how this one came together! Glad to see it's performing well. What did you use for a form load?

Thanks
Thanks, I'm sorta fond of this one already. The forming load was, from memory, 39gr RL 15 with an 87 Vmax. I was really just trying to lay down the moly and get the shoulders blown out for the real loads, which I'll be working on this weekend.

I'll have to break out the chrony for the next range trip to make sure I know what this one is doing before I head to WY. I have a feeling the 105s that have been recommended will be good for reaching out and touching some speed goats.
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
Cuando said:
You're in the crappiest part of the state too. If you ever wanna make a +/- 3 hour trip north, I've got steel out to 1,350 and nobody around to bother you.
Now that sounds more like it... my cousin lives outside of Shasta and I visit him every so often. If you're in that area, I'll even bring some steel...
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
Cuando said:
Chico/Oroville area. May be a bit out of the way.
I know the area well. Other cousins grew up in Yuba City and my brother lived in Oroville for a while. I get up there quite a bit during duck/pheasant season.
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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Winds sorta simmered here. Not quite 22LR good...but much better.

'Buggy is only 45 minutes late...................(grin)
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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Fucker hit the house at 6:00AM this morning outta the blue and I said that's THE earliest I've ever seen him and was concerned he may need Medical Attention....despite the 2hr late start on a good day.(grin)

I'll sleep when I'm dead.............
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
So I finally got this build out in the field. I can't post pictures right now cause of a really slow connection out in Wyoming, but I gotta tip my cap to Stick and the others who helped with the build.

Other than a pretty stiff wind, conditions were good yesterday outside of Rawlins (we drew antelope unit 55). My hunting buddy, who is no fan of anything other than OEM rifles, 3-9 capped Leupolds and belted magnums (he's very successful with those things, but just pretty dismissive of everything else), was not amused when I showed up with this build.

After going past some fairly decent bucks at daylight we spotted one buck that was pretty impressive from about 1000 yards off. Long story short is that he was with a smaller, but decent, buck and the bigger one caught me as I was stalking them. The smaller one didn't take off immediately and I set up for a 450 yard shot.

I still wasn't completely dialed in with load development, but was close enough to feel comfortable with my dope. Gotta say that the Fixed Fucker and a good drop chart made it really easy to line up the shot. It was a bang, 15 yard sprint, flop.

The buck, which will win no awards but will help fill freezer space, took the moly'd 105 right into the heart from the front and blew out the lungs. Zero meat waste, the bullet stopped at the far side ribcage and all things equal, I couldn't have asked for better performance.

PLUS, while the A5 and Varmint contour rig is heavy, the balance in the field is so perfect that I don't mind carrying it around.

Later in the day I filled the doe tag with a similar shot at a shorter distance (about 250 yards) and a similar result.

At that point I was tagged out. My friend had filled his buck tag on a very nice freak buck, but in a very ugly manner with his oem Rem 700 (something like 10 shots fired, including a gut shot and a high shoulder shot that ruined a lot of meat).

So as the sun set and his doe tag was unfilled, we came across a bunch of does and my friend said he wanted to use my rifle. I blessed it, he bitched about the weight and the fact that the scope was not variable (I still don't understand why he didn't like the simple beauty of a fixed power) and then proceeded to anchor a nice doe at about 200 yards with a perfect shot into the heart.

He grudgingly gave kudos to the rifle.

So the grand total for the day was 3 shots fired, a buck and two does taken with either bang/flop shots or bang/15 yards/flop shots and zero missed shots or poorly placed shots.

I wouldn't take this rifle on a long backcountry hunting trip, but for everything else it is now my favorite. The A 5 simply works for me in all conditions, the 243 Ackley with 105s is a killer, the Fixed Fucker is a precision tool and y'all made this a great hunt with your build advice.
 

Driftin'

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2009
2,225
13
Offshore
Congrats on both your successful hunt and new build. I would wager that the buck that your pard perforated wished he was similarly savvy to the merits of your facts and evidence....
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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Been through it 1000's of times and some folks just can't be made sense to.(grin)

Things ALWAYS change in the flesh,when dissenters can actually lay eyes/hands on things and take them for a Test Drive in extrapolation.,to finally connect dots.

A pard here at work was all hot to trot on a 338 EDGE or Ultra,until I conveyed what a dumbfuck he was,to circumvent a rifle that will actually get USED. He did an about face and is now talking a 270 18" Chassis Bitch,which makes more than a buncha sense. 'Course Vortex was "great" too,until his first MQ.(grin)

I gotta make more videos.(grin)

Glad to hear the rifle was all that you anticipated,as a minimum..................
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
Big Stick said:
Been through it 1000's of times and some folks just can't be made sense to.(grin)

Things ALWAYS change in the flesh,when dissenters can actually lay eyes/hands on things and take them for a Test Drive in extrapolation.,to finally connect dots.

A pard here at work was all hot to trot on a 338 EDGE or Ultra,until I conveyed what a dumbfuck he was,to circumvent a rifle that will actually get USED. He did an about face and is now talking a 270 18" Chassis Bitch,which makes more than a buncha sense. 'Course Vortex was "great" too,until his first MQ.(grin)

I gotta make more videos.(grin)

Glad to hear the rifle was all that you anticipated,as a minimum..................
Amen. I am more than satisfied with this rifle. The .243 ackley definitely impressed. My favorite part was when my pard went from bitching about the weight of my rifle to saying "I guess it works" a minute later after he used it to drop his doe with a single shot.

My pard is a bit picky about how he shows up online, so without having asked him if it's ok to paste his mug here, I just blurred him out. This was the buck he shot.

And this is that buck, sorta hidden on the left, with the noggin of my buck on the right. I didn't have my phone/camera with me when I shot my buck and my pard hasn't sent the pics he took with his phone, so the after-quartering head pic of my buck is all I have now.

 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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A pard here at work is getting some things fingered out and killed a good Muley at 780yds+ and stroked an Antelope to boot,with a pretty sound platform. Gave him the Sig Kilo Talk yesterday and told him to throw his Leica 1600 in the garbage.(grin)

He just shakes his head...but will make the order..............
 

Brazo

Well-known member
Mar 29, 2013
525
3
The Keystone State
Which 105 did you use?

Great afternoon there very nice job, congrats. Looking to build a very similar build, still debating 223 AI or 6BR. Tough decisions!
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
Brazo said:
Which 105 did you use?

Great afternoon there very nice job, congrats. Looking to build a very similar build, still debating 223 AI or 6BR. Tough decisions!
I used the Hornady 105 BTHP (moly'd) and the bolt knob is a Badger Ordnance.

Having never shot either 223 AI or 6BR, I couldn't give an opinion one way or another, but I can say that based on the two rifles I put together as a result of advice from folks here (the other was a light 7-08), if there's a good answer it will be had on this forum.
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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A 270 rates a thunk too,as they really swat shit hard. While I LOVE my Baby BR,there simply is no getting around the sanctity of 270 logistics,mannerisms and mag capacity.

Perhaps THE greatest Sleeper of All Time..................
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
LOBO said:
Was the bullet recovered?

BTW, congrats on a great buck.
Thanks, I got part of the bullet in the buck. It smacked up against the offside ribs and there were a few big pieces left. It entered the front of the chest, blew out the heart and lungs and didn't do too much damage to the ribs before there wasn't enough left to see whatever damage it was still doing.
 

Brazo

Well-known member
Mar 29, 2013
525
3
The Keystone State
Big Stick said:
A 270 rates a thunk too,as they really swat shit hard. While I LOVE my Baby BR,there simply is no getting around the sanctity of 270 logistics,mannerisms and mag capacity.

Perhaps THE greatest Sleeper of All Time..................
Here comes Stick throwing wrenches in my plans ha!

Lets put it this way, I have a 223 Kimber that I wish to rebarrel and also want to build an A5 and varmint contour type build.

What chamberings for each? That will be the end of my waffling over it.

Looking forward to your recommendations.

Best
 

Brazo

Well-known member
Mar 29, 2013
525
3
The Keystone State
The Kimber (223 action) for a light done right tote around for eastern wild turkey, and occasional whitetail tail, plus plinking around at steel / targets with the 6x MQ.

The A5 varmint contour build is going to be a bipod / prone / mostly stationary rig or walking short distance setups for practicing long range (for me) and occasional groundhog.

I have customs in 243 AI, 264, and 280 AI so the big stuff is pretty well covered.

A long winded way to say I'd like the Kimber for walky stalky hunting and the A5 for DBM long range practice and fun from a stable platform. Action not ordered yet can still go 223 or 308 boltface here.

Much appreciated
 

Brazo

Well-known member
Mar 29, 2013
525
3
The Keystone State
I KNOW I need at least one of them in 223 AI if not both. The question is if one of these platforms should become a fast twist 6x45 or 6BR or not and why.
 

Brazo

Well-known member
Mar 29, 2013
525
3
The Keystone State
Big Stick said:
Build a 223AI Montucky and a Heavy 270...to dabble both Worlds.................
Sounds good to me,

Would you be kind enough to help me spec the builds?

I'll do the Kimber first.

Really all I need for that is a barrel maker, # of grooves, twist, and COAL for the 75 A-max dummy round to throat to.

Anything else I'm forgetting?

I would like to use a Remington 700 223 spring and 223 milled follower but I can't find the 223 milled followers anywhere.

Best
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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I'd not build a 223AI over 21",nor a 270 over 20".

The Montucky OEM contour is as great as I'd go and I prefer a reduced shank on 'em.

On an A5 or similar,balance fill weight with contour. PSS contour on the small end MTU/AMU on the other. Never really did like Palma contours,prolly because I've had more than a few.

For barrels,I'd just scoop up what Greg had ready on the shelf and cut to the chase. No slower than 8" in either and no faster than 7" for me. 3-grooved if available.

A 2.450" COAL 75A-Max smooch,is a nice middle of the road place to be..............
 

remsen

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2007
461
0
Danville, CA
And the final chapter...just got the skull/horns back for the Wyoming lope I took with this build last fall (it's the one on the right). Not a trophy, but my best antelope yet. Can't wait to see what I take with it this season...

Thanks again to all here who helped guide this build.
//imgur.com/OOgdEkk
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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Hopefully the "luck" continues.

It'd be tough to go back to ping Pong Balls and Kentucky Windage...............(grin)