Here's a post I made at The Hull Truth, trying to organize my thoughts and get some input on repowering our boat. What do you guys think?

Well, it's time to repower our 28x10 aluminum offshore boat. It's currently running 2006 200HO Etecs and we're switching over to Yamahas because there's no Evinrude service in our area. I've been debating how to set the boat up with 4strokes and thought I might solicit some advice.

Here is a picture of the boat the day it shipped, just to give and idea of size & type:



Here's another shot which shows the hull profile & V, as well as the Etecs.



The boat cruises at about 27kts on good water, running right around 4000rpms. It will get on plane on one motor with the other trimmed up out of the water. It's running 17inch rebel props. I don't have any fuel burn specs, unfortunately. I believe the boat to weigh between 9000 and 10,000lbs with average load. Fuel capacity is 190gal and fresh water is 35gal.

I've discussed the repower with our Yamaha dealer, who offered thoughts on a couple choices -
1-single F350 (I really like having twins for safety's sake offshore). Our boat is very similar to this one, so I can get some idea of performance- http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/p...os-f350tur.pdf
2-twin 150's (I hate to drop down 100hp, especially going from 2stroke to 4stroke; don't think I would be happy with the performance but fuel economy would probably be pretty good if I could stand slow cruise speed)
3-twin 200's (these are a bit heavier than I would like and I figure if I'm gonna go this route, might as well take advantage of the new, larger displacement 225's)
4-twin 225 offshores (my current choice)

After reading lots of performance specs on the new offshores I am thinking the twin 225s will be a good match for the boat. The weight difference is only a slight increase from the 2006 Etec 200HO and the additional displacement, plus a touch more hp should help offset the holeshot difference. Also, there appears to be some fuel efficiency gained with the new offshores.

The 225 offshore seems to be a good match for the boat. I could go twin 250's or twin 300's, but don't really see the need. I am guessing with the 225's I will be seeing something like a 28-30mph cruise at something like 3500-3750rpm and probably burn around 16-18gph. I know this is a wild-ass guess but I've pored over so many performance charts of different configurations with these motors I feel like it's a reasonable stab at a prediction. Only time will tell.

Anyway, what do you guys think of my reasoning and do you see any holes in my logic?

Thanks!
Dave

I'd go 250's no doubt. Same weight, more HP, motors shouldn't have to work as hard.
Where we fish almost all the guides that fish every day run 250's and have been for years.......

i like the way you think...

When starting from scratch, never go under powered...........grin

hard to believe it will be underpowered with 450hp given that it already hauls ass with 400hp but your point is well taken.

can never have too much hp

4stroke torque is not the same as 2stroke.......

Definitely true. However a big displacement increase helps with that. The new offshore series is 4.2L vs the etec 3.3L.

I just repowered the skiff from 2stroke 150 to 4stroke 150 (both Yamaha) and was able to clearly observe the differences between the lighter, torque-y 2stroke and the heavier 4stroke, both of the same hp. It is an interesting comparison on the water.

I'm guessing bigger displacement, 50 more hp and virtually same weight will help balance the issue in this case but probably won't erase it...

All of which, under consideration, helps pass the time at work...grin.

What's even more interesting and will make you think is that the "150" 4 stroke Yammie actually has 172 HP.........

And still won't run with a 2 stroke..........

I didn't know that. Underscores the difference, for sure...

Sorry to hear you guys are looking at a repower already... I remember seeing the build and delivery pictures when this thing came to Paradise. And I remember turning a little bit green with envy then...

I'm thinking 225's or 250s will make you happy. If you have good local Yamaha service, then brand is a no-brainer. Looks like the 225 offshore and 250 offshore are the same block, same displacement, and they push that 4.2 all the way to 300hp, which is pretty impressive. They "prefer" 89 octane in the 300 though, which knocks some of the shine off it.

I'd lean to the 250 side as well, without knowing the price difference. Can't see any fuel consumption data, and that would be the only thing that would make me like less power, especially at the same weight.

I think Dan has run the same 28 foot Alumaweld hull (2 different boats, same model) with 250 Suzuki's and 225 Verado's, but don't quote me on those models. He may have some pretty good comparison info for you though.

Both boats Chris is referring to are 90's vintage 28ft Alumaweld Offshore Hartops, with 9-1/2ft beams. One is powered with twin '04 225 Optimax's and the other wears a pair of '06 225 Suzuki 4-strokes. The 4-strokes troll much nicer, are quieter (even at wide open) and win in the fuel economy comparison. The Opti's flat haul ass, want to cruise at a higher speed, and will plane the boat with one motor ('Zuki's won't), but it takes a while. The Suzuki's are torquey, but the Opti's have a much more aggressive throttle response.

Between the two, I prefer the 4-strokes. They are smooth & easy!

Dave, be sure to check the gear ratios in the Yamaha lower units between the 225's, 250's and 300's. There is a difference in the Suzuki line-up, and it caused some confusion with prop selection at first. Once the gear ratio differences were straightened out, everything made a lot more sense.

Did you ever try to plane the boat with one 225 when the bilge was empty?

Well, thanks for the conversation. Think I'll see if these new Yamaha Offshore series will fit on our bracket, and if so, I'll talk the final decision over with the Yamaha guy. 225 or 250 with fuel economy being the deciding factor.

Good point on gears too, Dan.

It sucks dumping $40k on boat motors (again)...grin.

Does anything else out there in the aluminum block world use "plasma fused sleeveless cylinders?" With no liner, I wonder at the feasibility of boring said cylinders for a rebuild. Not that you need to worry about that. Looks like gearing is 1.75:1, which means they run smaller (old "normal") size props, not like suzuki's monsters.

I have Endsley's old 2002 225 honda up to 1160 hours right now. The 350 hours I've put on have been mostly hard cruise right at 4400 rpm just below where the vtec kicks in or above on up to 4800. I think he ran it as hard or harder. It's been flawless.

I'd want something with the least amount of smart crap attached. To me that means engine management only. The zuke 300 shifts electronically versus cable/linkage. Looks like the new yamaha is the same. Not sure if honda has switched over yet.

YES! Thanks for bring the "fly-by-wire" topic up. I forgot about that. We had serious issues with the 2008 Suzuki 300's "outsmarting" themselves. On a couple of occasions an engine wouldn't start, because the computer said it was still in gear. I could clearly see the prop turning with the tide current, but the computer believed otherwise. I was able to "trick" the computer, once by disconnecting the battery. When I reconnected the battery leads, it effectively restarted the computer. A couple of other incidents resulted in very long boat rides home.

We replaced two lower units during the first two seasons due to electronic shift mumbo-jumbo. Give me the old-fashioned cables any day!

Not seeing the waterline stain - does it sit stern-heavy presently? At fast cruise, do you use trim tabs for anything other than leveling the boat?

You're looking at an extra man hung off the back - new static and running trim can be pretty easily simulated by making someone you don't like stand back there while running.

A guy on bloodydecks' washington ads page is selling a quantity of NIB 2006 honda 150s for $10M each. Someone needs to retrofit that 28' diesel walkaround almar on alaskaboatbrokers with a bracket and hang those off there. Might could recoup some costs selling the diesel engine and outdrive...

2-Stroke pickup trucks anyone?!!?

Nawww.....me neither.............(grin)

Get whatever you want, as long as it's Merc or Yamaha bought locally. If shit breaks, Chet will have you fixed up the same day. I think my longest 100hr took 5 hours from drop off from when I got the call to come pick it up!

Jerry,

You're a bad influence. I've been thinking more and more about upgrading to something bigger, and while I'd love to have a big boat in a slip, Whitiier is just unreasonable. So that limits me to trailerable, and that Almar would be a good candidate, but the cabin is just too small.

Actually the 30' almar would be perfect if it did have twin merc i/b's.

You guys don't have a Suzuki dealer up there? Seems that's what everyone around here is going to.

That almar appears to be A Fishing Rig of Excellence, no doubt. Moreso with an uncluttered back deck. They even got the kicker shaft length right.

Maybe gut it, move the engine forward and couple to outdrive via jackshaft (a la waterfall resort), reconfigure cabin seating to work with an engine hump, and pull down some killer mileage numbers for a boat that large (and a killer ride for a boat that small). While you're at it, carve out the crapper, amputate the low cabin front, and replace cabin front with a proper sized insulated tote or insulated fish box. You of all people could do any and all of that for way less time than the tolman build...

Buy another outdrive and swap them every 200 hours whether it needs it or not.

Go fish middleton...that's almost enough boat to do it.

The thing is I'm looking at more than just killing fish. The family (wife) seem more interested in heading out for several days, hiking, kicking back etc. That's all good and fine, but my tolman is way too small for 2 adults and 3 teenagers for multiple days when the weather keeps you on board.

That and I'm so tied up with work and kids activities that I just can't imagine where I found the spare time to build the tolman. By the time I'd have the Almar dialed, the kids will be out of the house and it would almost be too big of a boat.

The real catch 22 is I can't see dropping the coin on such a boat when it would make more sense to upgrade our house, but if we upgrade the house, can't swing the boat.

Nice to have a killer boatload day...for 10 gallons of fuel. Done just that,all day yesterday.

I've long thought about going beeger...but it will burn lamp oil,not gas..............

Ain't that the truth. I have access to use a 27' Almar, with twin 130's any time I want. I can't bring myself to burn 3x the gas, with a boat that catches half the fish my 19' skiff does.

I like my 130 fine and of 'em is plenty...............(grin)

Your skiff is well outfitted for killing surf or turf, no doubt! If I lived a stone's throw from the water, I'd have something like that and cherry-pick my days on the water. That would be perfect!

Our current boat needs are best suited by a camper that floats. Overnight trips make the best out of an expensive tank of fuel, especially out of PWS where traveling 80 miles one-way is not uncommon.

I'd relocate...................(grin)

Hey Dave....here is our re-power.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/Viking-45-Convertible-2336409/Marina-Del-Rey/CA/United-States

Sweet.....

I bet it's never had blood on the backdeck...............

I hear ya Dan. I like to fish too much, and have too much time on my hands to have a boat that burns gas! Believe me, I was wishing for a bigger boat on the 1st few days of the king opener this year. 30knt SE, and my fish were 16 miles away, with two shitty crossings to make. Had a few Oh Shit moments running back in with a full load of fish!

That's the bugger living in Seattles Northernmost subburb and outlying areas, you have a long drive to the ramp, and a long ride to the fishing holes. That and having to an extent to deal with what whether gets thrown at you leads to wanting/needing a bigger boat. Just towing a boat to Whiitier or Seward from Anchroage you're out $100 on fuel and fees before firing up the boat.

Those 28' Almars with single diesel seem to be running around $60k, alot of boat for the coin.

If a single 150hp 4-stroker don't do it proud...go diesel and cut to the chase..............

I just can't warm up to those stinky bastards.....not in a 28-ft class boat.

Beats wearing a bomb strapped to one's ass.

Then of course,they run for fucking ever too and take all the fun outta wrenching on shit.................(grin)

The real bitch with an i/b in a 28' boat is the dog box that takes up part of the fishing deck. But one could learn to live with that if'n fuel consumption is 2/3rds of a gasser.

Looking like upgrading the boat might turn into getting a cabin. If my boat goes back to day trip duty, it's plenty big. And the cabin would be useful year round.

I'd (personally)weigh fuel consumption,fuel capacity,fuel volatility,fuel cost,fuel filtration,noise,stank,upkeep,heater source,logistics,longevity,upkeep,yada,yada.

Would a bench seat on the backdeck piss me off?

Nope.................(grin)

Any chance the Yamaha 250 would get the boat on step with a single engine?

That Almar is part of a charter fleet. He's probably not selling the best one.

Here ya go BW. I've fished around this boat a bunch.

http://juneau.craigslist.org/boa/2476945902.html

I shoulda bought Old Blue from Humper,before he peeled...............

Is "Old Blue" that Maxweld?

I saw that listing before, and almost asked about it here.

Humper's Maxweld,not the one cited above.

The Saltwater ain't as much fun to me,as most and I couldn't justify the jingle,because I simply wouldn't use it much.

For me,my beat to fuck Duckworth is just about perfect............

That particular Maxweld is owned by Shelter Cove Lodge. I bet somebody could really lowball em..

Well...?

What's the decision?

We still have no idea which way to go....repower the Kimber Dawn, sell her and buy the 46' Bertram, or sell her and buy a 42' power troller.

Decisions, decisions......

It's looking like twin 250's for the KD is the best move! They are hard to source though, and might not be bolted on 'til November.

How many hours do the Etecs have on them?

Think they are right around 800 or so....

Just under 700...

No shit?! Huh....

I'd run'em some more unless you are having problems.........

Can't say we're having problems really, but we've had them in the shop a few times for fixes, and at least annually for a service.

Problem is, gotta trailer it for an hour, launch, run an hour and a half across Clarence Strait (notoriously shitty crossing) and rely on a guy in a different town to service/fix anything; then turn around and do that all over again to get her home.

Last time over I ran her to Ketch on one engine, across Clarence on a fairly grumpy day. Got to the docks on the other side and decided I was done with that shit.

Not getting local service sucks big time....

If I had Zuki service in town, this would be mine...
http://juneau.craigslist.org/boa/2500724037.html

Wonder how much a guy could trip the outboards for....'tis a nice ride.

Nice boat for sure.

We've got another Suzuki guy in town now, since Allen Marine shut down everything but their boat building business. He does Suzuki's, and Honda's. They seem good enough. I just had them flush the entire fuel system on my 175hp version. There was a ton of water in the engine filters and high pressure pump.

My engine died after watching the fireworks on the 4th of July, and I had to motor in from the main harbor on the kicker. I did what I could, and got it running again the next day, but it wouldn't run at full throttle. Bogged down around 5000rpms. Now it hits 6000rpms and is doing fine.

I'm in the middle of installing Lenco trim tabs now. Got everything mounted, and and doing some final wiring. Just need to pick up a fuse housing to wire into the power wire tomorrow, and it's all done.

Next modification is getting rid of the hydraulic puller, and going electric. Going to get the Safety Hauler. That will eliminate the 8.0hp Honda gas engine, hydraulic tank, and pump.

Great! Get that thing whipped into shape before you sell her to me...

I'm looking for a replacement, but it's surprisingly hard to find one.

She's a killing machine for sure, you'll know when she's for sale, right after me.

The trim tabs are going to make a huge difference!

My skiff could sure use some trim tabs..

I dunno, but I've been doing the math in my head for the last few days, and it'd be up there with a repower right off the bat. Damn, I wish that that boat had Yamaha's on it. It'd be a sportfishing/hunting/handtrolling dream. Would be easy on the fuel too.

I'm guessing you'd have to dish out at least $10k after tripping the zukis to go with new yammies.

25" shafted 115's, without local service would be a nightmare to sell. I'm guessing the upgrade to Yamaha's would be above 15.

If you could get them to the mainland of the state you could probably get $10k for the pair.

Think we are going to go cheap and get the single Yamaha f350. The performance report for the North River 28 Seahawk Offshore should be similar to our boat.

Screw that get the 46' Bertram.......grin

Then I can't afford a 40' troller...

Those 350's are big bastards. Gonna make the boat look smaller.

Will be interested to see your real performance numbers. That's a pretty interesting motor....

I like those performance numbers, if they hold true. I bet that the North River is heavier than your boat too. 14gph for 27 mph is not bad at all. The boat I'm running (Trinity) burns 21gph, with twin 250 Verado's, and gives me about 28mph.

Think about it this way.. Fuel will be cheaper, initial purchase will be cheaper, 100hr services will be half price, rigging will be half price, etc..

I'd have no problem running a new Single 4 Stroke. I run my single 150 all over the place and don't have a worry.

Thanks, I'm thinking the same. The biggest drawback is not having motor redundancy if one shits the bed. Our boat with twin 200 Etecs will cruise at 22kts on one motor at under 4400rpm once it's up on plane.

Like you said though, we run the other boat with single 150 all over and back without a second thought.

I'll get a sat phone from these guys and plug your number into the speed dial just in case..grin. http://www.anchoragesatellitephones.com/aboutus.html

I think we will be happy with the lower fuel bill and I'm thinking I'll put the extra $ savings from buying a single vs twins into a PT permit.

I'm also looking at having a replacement for Whisky River built. Something with a touch more deadrise to get rid of the pounding in the chop.

Incidentally, I ran those Northriver F350 numbers through a prop slip calculator and think there is room for improvement. I think it should realistically get 32mph at 4000rpms. Ken at propgods said there was only one prop available when that performance test was run, and that there are a few more available now which might work better.

That rig is slipping about 25% at cruise and I think a guy could realistically get it down to at least 15%.

Anyway, looks like pretty impressive performance and lots of guys on the grady site and THT have pretty good things to say about the F350.

Joel, you figure you burn about 55gal of fuel per day, on average charter day (I know there really isn't such a thing but I find we burn 60+ on the typical day hunting kings....a loop around Noyes with a few stops along the way)?

I seem to recall playing with the trim tabs on Whiskey River as we were blasting through Rocky Pass. Otherwise, I recommend them as a chop busting addition.

I finished installing the Lenco trim tabs on the skiff, and they work great. Besides fixing the leaning issue that all small skiffs suffer from based on loading, by lower the bow into the chop I can now change "bang,bang,bang,bang,bang" to "smoooooth" running.

Also helps correct the list caused by prop torque, which that big prop on the 175 'Zuki definitely creates over 5000rpm. As we know, a side wind or even a current can cause a boat to list, and then pound on the bottom area between the keel and the chine. I can't believe it took me so long to install the damn things. It's like a new boat.

Pics are loading on the Pbucket now. Will post later.

Had better pics, but lost them during the PC to Mac swap.

Calvin, after running them, I highly recommend you get some. Gotta drill about 16 holes below the waterline, and that had me pretty nervous. That, and trusting self-tapping screws in 1/4 inch aluminum, were the big challenges. But I bedded them with so much 5200, I think they'll hold up just fine. Haven't noticed the bilge pump running any more than usual, although you can see it running in the pictures. As you now, it's been very wet here lately.





Sorry I missed the focus by a mile, but the switch panel was easy to install, and despite the warnings in the instructions, with the basic switch, you don't need a 2" hole saw, just an opening about 3/4 by 1 inch. I couldn't find a damn 2" hole saw in town anywhere. So I used a dremel(ish) tool to make the hole. Wiring was a breeze.

Some dream Yammy 350 pics...







Those Coldwater boats simply rock!

Nice job...trim tabs are definitely valuable. They're the reason our boat does as well as it does. Still pounds pretty hard though, you can't completely overcome the hull design issues with a river boat on the salt water, though they help a lot!

That boat with the 350s is sweet! Coldwater? Never heard of them...

Coldwater makes a nice car.

'Bout time to throw a boat in the water here at work and go sniff around..............

I could be talked in to a Coldwater hull!

I've been to the coldwater factory. They make a hell of a boat.


Bob who runs the Norma J here in town put 2 350 Yamaha's on his 28' Almar boat, so he can run to Forrester at 50knts.. and he does!

Roger that. Today I ran to Diamond Point, then to Hog Rock, then offshore 4 miles of St Joes for halibut, then back to hog rock, then home. Burned 27 gallons per motor, per the gauge on the boat.

That's better than my boat does. Today in 4hrs I did Diamond, Arboleda and home for 55 gallons..grin.

Dang. When I hand trolled Arboleda, I burned 10-12 gallons a trip, and that included 5 or 6 hours of trolling on the main.

You going to sell your hydraulic setup, BrianW? If, so is it still in working order?

Yes, it works fine, and I need to sell it in order to pay for the new electric one. I pulled pots with it just the other day.

It needs a new filler cap on the hydraulic tank, and fresh hydraulic fluid. I replaced the hoses and control valve about a year ago and the Honda engine a few years ago.

Can't work any deals now, I'm headed to work on Monday. Will be back October 2nd.

Say Bill/Dave... any plans for a kicker on the new set up?

Just had another run-in with a Suzuki 300 last week. The lower main bearing let loose, and the ensuing wobble actually broke the driveshaft. That brings the grand total of lost time repairs to four lower units, and two powerheads in only four seasons of chartering. I'll never put one on my boat. No fucking way!

My wallet wouldn't allow anything other than Yammie or Honda.................

In early july we overnighted at a lodge about halfway between Whittier and Seward. Another party had a nice 28' North River with a 300 zuke that was making one hell of a rhythmic clank right at the arse end of the engine. I think Zuke does a gear reduction there between the crank and the driveshaft. They noted that the noise started as mild when they arrived, and got worse over a day of fishing nearby. They were 70 miles from anywhere, and had folks in from the midwest. Long way home on a kicker.

Just another Alaskan Adventure Story..............(grin)

I'm pretty familiar with the Verados. My office.(grin) Damn we are getting some nice sized kings this summer.

I ordered up the single 350 V8 Yamaha. Based on the Yamaha performance report for the 28x9.5 NorthRiver, I am guessing we will be OK. Basically I was too cheap to drop the $45k.

I'm hoping we will have dual steering stations for control of both the main and the kicker at each station. Still have to hash that out with Chet the Yamaha Dude.

Because of the disruption from the jap tsunami, there is a couple months delay on orders. We should have the new motor hung in December.

took my camera home and seen this pic on it. The boat in the background looks familiar..

Damn, we ride low in the water.

I snapped quite a few of you guys that last day at flat rock. I'll dig 'em up and see if there are any good ones.

Dave,

Cancel that 350hp order, and buy this boat...

http://juneau.craigslist.org/boa/2542399909.html

Then swap motors and sell the hull to Calvin.

Lol..that's a pretty good idea...

I think I like this.

LINK...............