Longer range .224 bullet for 1/9 twist

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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I'm trying to shoot out my .223 Montana, so I can rebarrel with a 1/8 Bartlein/Lilja/Rock or other quality barrel. It's got too many rounds down it to realistically sell as a take-off (a guess is 2000 rounds), and don't want to rebarrel while the old barrel still has some life and is still accurate, so I would rather just have fun blasting stuff with it as much as possible before rebarreling. The 75 AMAX doesn't shot worth a shit in it and never did, even when hot rodded.

What higher B/C bullets have other folks found to stabilize well in a factory .223 Montana? The 52 AMAX has shit for B/C so won't go that route unless nothing else works.

Any suggestions?
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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Thanks everyone...I'll try the 75 HPBT and see WTF.

I think I saw some Sierra 69s here locally. I'm not a big Sierra fan but may see if they'll work.

Appreciate it.
 

Big Stick

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Nov 18, 2007
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They cost more,drift more and drop more...plus they ain't as reliable on Critters.

The poly version is a step in the right direction,but I still prefer the Hornie 75 HPBT.................
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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Thanks Big Stick.
Have you ever played with the Horn 68 HPBT in a 223 Montana? They've got a decent B/C.

I'll for sure see if the 75 HPBT (and the 68 if I can find some) works first before venturing into the shitty world of green boxes.
 

Big Stick

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I got a coupla bad batches of 68's and got away from 'em. Have shot 1000's and 1000's of 'em and prolly have a couple/few 1000 kicking around still.

The 75 is wayyyyyyyyyy more predictable and the better mouse trap..................
 

bobnob

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Jan 15, 2016
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NSW, Australia
Been playing with the 68 Hdy BTHP here lately, hitting steel to 750y very well and have cleaned up a few feral goats with them. About 2920fps out of the RAR Compact 223 Rem and they were effective on the goats.

Biggest size would only have been about 35 to 40 kg so not huge animals.
 

bobnob

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Jan 15, 2016
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NSW, Australia
Heheh, yes I have 75g Amaxes on order and intend to have all these 68s done and dusted by then!

The Amax 75s are cheaper anyway, bought by the box of 600...
 

Big Stick

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I was talkin' 75 Hornie BTHP's...comparisons to the 75 'Max ain't even fucking fair...................(grin)
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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Thanks for the suggestions guys but I'm still having troubles with this rifle. I've started at the fucking start and am getting frustrated.

I even took the mag box completely out (after working my magic to make it fit right), and it still isn't accurate at all. 3 MOA at best, with any decent bullet. I may just have to keep on truck'n with 55s till she's wore out, or just rebarrel it now with some life left in her...
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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I've put the AMAX (as well as several other bullets) from a few hundred thou off the lands to jammed tight into the lands. 2-3 MOA is normal.

I got a good group the other day with the 69 Sierra (had to hold my nose), and am thinking that this rifle may really like loads pushing the safety envelope. Headed out here in a few to try 25.5 gr of H335 with the 69 and 63 Sierras. Will try the 75 AMAX and HPBT at that charge too. 25.3 grains showed extractor marks with the AMAX, but nothing else.

I'm no pro at bedding. I'll give it another whirl with this rifle.
thanks for the suggestions.
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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I tried taping the tip of the forearm up tight to the barrel and that didn't do squat. That's about all I have tried.

I am seeing some light though. I actually pulled a sub 2" group at 300 yards last night with the 63 Sierras. The 69 Sierras were almost as good at just over 2" at 300, though I wasn't too steady when the trigger broke with the 69's. No pressure signs whatsoever so I am taking it up a notch.

I got 25.8 grains of H335 loaded up with the 75 AMAXs, 75 HPBT, 69 Sierra and 63 Sierra ready to shoot here in a few.

I know the whole kiss, find pressure and rock on thing, but I have never had to hot rod a rifle to get the accuracy I want until now. I certainly have not had a rifle go from 3"+ groups at 100 to less than 1 MOA with only
 

Big Stick

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I'd go the other way and add tip pressure...between the two.

Running a rifle at it's best,has nothing to do with "Hot Rodding",but they are ALWAYS happiest when hitting on all cylinders.

With a kiss,pressure and rocking on,you can remove ammo from the equation.

Hint.................
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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Well 25.8 H335 grains is definitely pushing the safety factor with 75s. I shot a few that seemed OK, but a couple with somewhat loose primer pockets were too hot...the primers blew out and had a stick bolt lift. 2-3 MOA for the AMAX and HPBT, unfortunately. I pulled all the rest.

I'm going to stay at 25.8 grains with 63 and 69 Sierras as there were zero pressure signs, but back it down to 25.5 grains for both types of 75s.

I'll try the fore end pressure thing. Do you just jam a wedge in there or something?
What about bedding? Full length? Just to the lug? Somewhere between the two?
 

Dude270

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2014
571
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business cards folded up can provide tip pressure
so can a cut down shotgun shells

Lots of Lw barreld guns respond to a snug lug and tip pressure via a pad of bedding
 

Big Stick

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A snug lug is a given and I'm happy to leave the shank alone.

Shim stock material selection for the fore end is moot,key is to get a reading on what is requisite for Precision,then to replicate same with bedding compound.

This would be a Good 'Un to RVT..................
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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That makes sense guys....at least I think I know what BS is saying. I've only attempted to bed a rifle a couple times, and I for sure could get better at it. That said, I will try bedding this rifle at the lug and see where that leads me.

I'm flying to Ketchikan for silvers and halibut and then will be back home in MT for a week, so this will rifle have to wait a couple weeks. I appreciate the suggestions though.

RVT...Reliability Verification Test?
 

snowchaser

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Jul 27, 2010
158
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vermont
RTV = Silicone in the front of the stock for tip pressure. Stick started a thread on it or he made some posts about how to do it in another thread a while back, not sure which but a search will find it.
 

Driftin'

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Nov 16, 2009
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Coat the spout with your flavor of release goo. Mask the stock and aft end of the bead for a clean edge. Lay a healthy bead or two of RTV about 4" long from the bow, aft. Finger snug the action screws and let her cure. Give the cured excess a trim to your satisfaction. You can also mask the inlet first to give it an R&D whirl. No harm no foul if you decide to toss the formed strip into the trash. Have heard good things....

I'd concur that it might be a good idea to snug-the-lug first to eliminate variables.
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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Oh, OK. I'll dig around and see what I can find for old threads concerning RTV.

thanks
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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uhhhh....OK. So would you suggest using RTV up to the lug or not? Am I totally missing the boat here?

Guess I should ask...how do I snug the lug? I figured that would involve bedding compound, but maybe not.
 

dznnf7

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Apr 30, 2016
305
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Check this out: http://asrealasitgets.net/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=189563&page=1

And Google search works better than any site search, use it like this to search for "RTV"---
rtv site:asrealasitgets.net
 

4th_point

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Dec 4, 2013
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Oregon
Easiest thing to do quick would be to add tip pressure with shims, as Stick already suggested. Then go from there with RTV, but bedding the lug now won't hurt. I suspect you've already confirmed that the barrel was floating from the start.

I think there is a lot of confusion regarding things like barrel whip and it might be hanging you up. The big whipping motion that people think of comes after the bullet leaves the barrel, as far as I know. This oscillation has no affect on precision or accuracy.

What does affect accuracy, is how the barrel distorts/flexes from the moment of ignition until the bullet leaves the barrel. There are definitely smaller vibrations in the barrel, but the rearward motion of the rifle, and bullet getting forced down the bore make the barrel change in shape.

You can change how the barrel distorts several ways. Adding tip pressure uses the stiffness of the stock to support the barrel. Instead of free-floating (cantilever), you've got a tube supported at one end (receiver) and somewhere towards the other end(muzzle). It's easy to test with shims. Of course, bedding the entire channel provides even more support.

Or, you could leave the barrel floated and cut the barrel shorter which changes the overall stiffness and decreases barrel time (the time the bullet spends inside the barrel)... but you can't easily add back what gets cut off :grin:

The other thing you can do is change powders. This affects barrel time, where the muzzle is pointed when the bullet leaves the barrel, and barrel distortion.

And you can do different combinations of the above, along with bedding the lug.
 

4th_point

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Dec 4, 2013
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Oregon
All that to say, "Add some shims and see what happens", if you can pop out the door and do a quick eval and are not comfortable bedding the lug. That might be all you need. If you've got some time before you shoot again, I'd spend the time to dab some compound/epoxy on the lug.
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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Thanks all. I flew home to Montana for the weekend, and am off to Ketchikan for a week of fishing, then spending the following week home again. I won't be able to get back to this rifle until Aug 15 or so.

I will try shimming though, once I get back.
 

Driftin'

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Nov 16, 2009
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tinman said:
uhhhh....Am I totally missing the boat here?
Yes.

First of all, slow down. There is all kinds of information in this forum and the www on how to bed a rifle and checking off boxes of the likely culprits for rifles that "don't shoot." Fastener tips that are bumping into barrel threads or loose, mag boxes that are sitting hard on the inside of an ADL stock, a bum scope or mount and other such things will all result in rodeo groups. Some rifles eat everything you feed 'em and some are a tad finicky. As someone hereabouts has oft said, "Rifles talk. Few listen." Start listening....

Bedding options range from aft tang to forearm tip. Most just bed the lug with any solid bedding compound. Acraglas Gel works nicely and can be colored to match the handle but you can use JB Weld epoxy or any other option.

May The Force be with you....
 

16Bore

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Feb 11, 2010
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Virgina
Let me make this simple for you. Look up every post I've commented on about bedding and do the exact opposite.

You've been led to gravy....
 

Big Stick

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Three Piece needs the RVT Treatment on his 6XC Montucky,but is rocking pressure I put on it,with a circumferential wrap of electrical tape. It went from Improved Cylinder to Watch THE Fuck Out,with a leetle shim as a fore end pressure indicator and I simply replicated that,with tape on the fly. Simply yarded the action out,wrapped to dupe the thickness it wanted and bolted 'er up.

He killed a pretty snazzy Buck with it the other day and the red tape wrap near the sling stud,offset the green foliage and Orange Buck nicely in it's contrast.

Funny shit................
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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Oh, OK. I tried wrapping electric tape around the stock and barrel...giving negative pressure, but I'll try "shimming" just the barrel with tape to see if WTF...if it works I'll bed the lug to replicate the same amount of tip pressure the tape around the barrel provided.

Is that what you're conveying? The tape is a temporary indicator, and once confirmed success, the bedding makes a more permanent fix?
 

Dude270

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2014
571
1
fold a business card until it fits between the stock and barrel with minimal pressure. shoot a group. now add one card thickness and shoot again. keep doing this until the groups get bigger instead of smaller or you can't fit anymore card stock in there.

If you find that a certain thickness tightens the group then use it as a thickness gauge for your bedding pad
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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Well I have tightened the lug and got it nice and snug.

Still not playing nice with 75 AMAX, but it is luv'n the 62 TSX with both H335 and IMR 4064. I guess I'll figure out my drop to the 5 with the TSX and play with the rifle and AMAX over the winter.

Thanks for all the help everyone. If I still can't get it to shoot this winter, I'll send it in for a new barrel and twist it an inch tighter. I've been partial to Lilja, Rock and Pac-nor...any suggestions on something else?
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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Not liking the 75 HPBT either. It likes the 69 sierra though :eek:

Hence why I am hunting with the 62 TSX this year...
 

TXNative

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Jan 27, 2013
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I have used pacnor, brux, shilen and lilja, all shot good except for the shilen and I bet it was the shooter and not the barrel or smith.

Last two are lilja and they shoot, gonna try lilja number 3 in the next hour.
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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Big Stick said:
Would like to see that rifle,for a coupla minutes...............
I'd like to show it to you...so you can work your magic.
I'm sure it is something relatively simple that I am doing wrong, at least I hope so.
 

tinman

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Jan 12, 2016
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TXNative said:
I have used pacnor, brux, shilen and lilja, all shot good except for the shilen and I bet it was the shooter and not the barrel or smith.

Last two are lilja and they shoot, gonna try lilja number 3 in the next hour.
I've had a couple Liljas, and haven't been disappointed. My 6.5x284 has a 1/8 lilja, and with the 140 AMAX and H4350 it is straight up stupid accurate.

Killed a 6x6 bull, a 4x4 mule deer and 3 antelope with it last year. Great rifle.
 

Big Stick

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tinman said:
Big Stick said:
Would like to see that rifle,for a coupla minutes...............
I'd like to show it to you...so you can work your magic.
I'm sure it is something relatively simple that I am doing wrong, at least I hope so.
It's never not something easy and glaring............
 

Big Stick

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I shoot all of them spouts,amongst a host of others.

On my Montuckies I've only got PN,Brux,Bart and Rock in the fleet...but have shot Liljee,MullerWorks and Hart too on 'em................
 

Brazo

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Mar 29, 2013
457
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The Keystone State
Big Stick said:
I shoot all of them spouts,amongst a host of others.

On my Montuckies I've only got PN,Brux,Bart and Rock in the fleet...but have shot Liljee,MullerWorks and Hart too on 'em................
Top 3 if all were on the shelf ready to go?

Thanks